Curse

Arturo02 · Aug 19, 2006, 06:36 PM // 18:36

so then most people who play guild wars are good at it right?

It is not being elitist to point out a fact in life: most people are not good at most things, myself included. So it stands to reason most people who play an ele are not good at it.

And the collective knowledge of this message board is not the grouping of the game's best eles. It is the most vocal and outgoing. Every game's message board is. There are a lot of great players in gw who never participate in forum discussions because they are shy.

Look, I'm not trying to say everyone on this board sucks at ele or that everyone sucks at gw, but we shouldn't get this notion in our heads the game is full of amazing gamers and the message boards are full of people who know everything about the game and have the best solutions and options.

This is not the case in rl and it isn't the case with gw. Life is full of mediocrity and there's no escaping it in a MMO.

Master Fuhon · Aug 19, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Ok, the response on this one is mostly going to be off topic. It's an argument style that needs some work. Basically, you took on the whole world in one instance and you didn't try to make any allies in the process.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

so then most people who play guild wars are good at it right?

All of the people who play guild wars are exceptional at something... some have god-like reflexes, others understand the strategy involved, others are generous about the time and resources they give to others... the rest just choose to spend their time at being exceptionally annoying. Paying money to buy a game doesn't weed out the people we don't want to play with, and it doesn't connect us with the people we really need to meet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

It is not being elitist to point out a fact in life: most people are not good at most things, myself included. So it stands to reason most people who play an ele are not good at it.

This is game time to some of us. We can go out into the real world to find out that we suck at 99% of the things that are out there. You don't need to come into the imaginary world and tell us we suck at playing too... at least give some of us the credit for trying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

And the collective knowledge of this message board is not the grouping of the game's best eles. It is the most vocal and outgoing. Every game's message board is. There are a lot of great players in gw who never participate in forum discussions because they are shy.

How is a group of the best-of-the-best already better than the alternative the real world can offer to shy people. You say "dominant speakers" rule the real world over their shy counterparts. Why should "dominant players" once again be in control over their unskilled counterparts?

And furthermore, dominant writers are the people who can have the best luck on these forums. Some of them may be shy in real life. I actually disagree with the philosophy most people preach about shy people not harboring elitist attitudes. It's the have-nots who end up being elitist, and sometimes a person can dedicate a large chunk of his life towards wanting something that isn't even worth the time to struggle for. The people with weak social skills just go about suceeding in other ways, the same as the people not blessed with the top gamer's reflex.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

This is not the case in rl and it isn't the case with gw. Life is full of mediocrity and there's no escaping it in a MMO.

This is true, but it matters more to know if your intent is to bring this up and rub it in our faces at every turn. The elementalist threads should not be designed to point out that the Ele sucks. Hopefully, enough information can be consolidated to figure out how to improve either the elementalist skills or to change our playing styles to become more effective. Please do not bring us all down to a level where we dread playing a game.

My point for fixing the elementalist is: If I have a mean streak in which I want to scorch the countryside, why should I have to reroll into a warrior to do it?

BaconSoda · Aug 20, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Well, couple of points.

There are four elements by which an ele can play, intermixed or singular. Now, how many of us have tried mixing the elements? It may sound dumb, but Grasping Earth + E.Quake/Dragon Stomp + Gust + Gale gets on a lot of people's nerves in PvP.

Now, this might sound ironic, but, instead of sitting around using number crunchers and calculating DPS, why don't we all play a game, and let it fufill it's purpose: To let us have fun. Most "good" players are the players who understand this concept (prolly started a flame war there, but oh well). A lesson in newbology: there are 2 types of newbs: The "Newbs" (new players who are genuinely new and therefor have a reason for being bad/slow at terminology), and the "N00Bs", those of us who treat a game like more than it is (reffered to as elitists in this thread i believe). The saddest part of this lesson is, Newbs, are often better players than Noobs... Why? Because they try their hardest, and they usually don't flame anyone else for any mistakes made in gameplay.

Elementalists can be adequate Damage Dealers, if you can play them correctly. Now, there are a few notes on AoE spells:
1.) You should not use them if they last nmor than 5 seconds (excluding Maelstrom & MS).
2.) You must have either a snare, or a knockdown to keep the AI in the AoE until it ends, and they resume the aggro of your tanks.
3.) Do not use an AoE unless they enemies are bunched, or there is a special/mission objective ahead of you.
Consider the Following: your tanks are taking heavy damage from a group of warriors. You want to Protect your tanks, and add Damage if Possible. Options:
Earth ele:
1.) Endager yourself to create a ward near their locale.
2.) Use Unsteady Ground/ Eruption/ Dragon Stomp to blind & Knockdown
3.) Run up and Cast Shockwave/AS/Crystal Wave/Tenai's Crystals.
Fire Ele:
1.) Spam Fireblall, Flare, and Imolate
2.) Cast a MS and Spam Fireball
3.) Run up and cast Bed of Coals/Starburst/LAoE
Air Ele:
1.) Cast Envigorating Charge/Blinding Flash of several Enemies
2.) Use Chaim Lightning/Lightning Orb/Lightning Hammer
3.) Spam Lightning Strike/Gale/Envigorating Charge
Water Ele:
1.)Cast Maelstrom and Snare with Deep Freeze/Water Trident
2.)Cast Blurred Vision
3.)Cast Mist Form and tank them all yourself (

)

Liable Solutions: Earth #3 & #2, Water #2, and Air #1 (with Epidemic/Fevered Dreams only), and maybe, just maybe, fire #2, but it's not quite protecting your tanks... The real problem is actually creating a build by which the elementalist can fufill it's "utility" function, and deal damage as well. Most of the "bad" players in GW suffer from a lack of imaginative forethought. So, lets all get off the forums, sit down with our ele's out, and think of a nice creative build! But remeber, GW is only a game, so treat it like only a game.

Xpl0iter · Aug 20, 2006, 07:35 AM // 07:35

BaconSoda... all i got for u in return of that post is
......

I really do not wanna go indepth, explaining every single bit written in your post. But, lets just say, Your ideas are way off the actual issues, and so are you.

Regardz.

Arturo02 · Aug 20, 2006, 07:56 AM // 07:56

if you look at what I say and think I'm telling you that you suck you are taking it personally. If you are good at the game my comments shouldn't bother you.

Arturo02 · Aug 20, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

and no my intent is not to say everyone here is a bad ele or that everyone here sucks at the game.

Just trying to back up my claim that the reason why people throw hate on professions is the people that play them not the skills themselves. We are the ultimate decider on how good we really are.

Xpl0iter · Aug 20, 2006, 08:11 AM // 08:11

You still have a limit with the choices that you have been given. You can't surpass them regardless of the fact that you may be the best arround in entire game. You are still bound by the choices. Face it.

Arturo02 · Aug 20, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

"All of the people who play guild wars are exceptional at something..."

How can you say this when the criteria for getting the game is acquiring $50? Reaching that goal has nothing to do with gaming ability.

Arturo02 · Aug 20, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I agree xploiter about choices. I just refuse to buy into the concept of dps because in pve you don't have to rush rush rush. it doesn't have to be about efficiency. I mean cmon on, you have to hear about productivity and efficency in the workplace, do we really have to deal with it in the game too?

Bacon had the right idea, having fun. Pve in gw isn't about rush rush rush through the game.

LightningHell · Aug 20, 2006, 09:34 AM // 09:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

I agree xploiter about choices. I just refuse to buy into the concept of dps because in pve you don't have to rush rush rush. it doesn't have to be about efficiency. I mean cmon on, you have to hear about productivity and efficency in the workplace, do we really have to deal with it in the game too?

You play your own way, and we'll play our way.

You can have fun with your ele as a flare spammer, but I like being efficient in what I do. Even in a game, you seek productivity - it makes no sense in being a healer using Mending at 0 Healing Prayers as a Warrior.

Don Zardeone · Aug 20, 2006, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arturo02

Just trying to back up my claim that the reason why people throw hate on professions is the people that play them not the skills themselves. We are the ultimate decider on how good we really are.

Afaik, the thread was about eles (the profession) being bad damagedealers.
Why are you talking about the person behind the bad damagedealer?

I don't get it, so if a trained machinegunner mans a machinegun, he shoots bullets. But if an experienced, uberly trained machinegunner of doom mans the same machine gun, does he fire rockets?

We're not hating elementalists, we're just saying that they suck at damage. It's like saying how a broken spoon sucks at being a spoon. Whoever made the spoon has to fix it or sooner or later there won't be any spoons left and everyone will be playing fork!

Master Fuhon · Aug 20, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

The whole argument started basically over a few lines in a manual that refered to an elementalist as the best damage dealer. Because of the mechanics of spell damage against higher armored enemies, the elementalist fails to maintain top damage dealing status during the end game PvE experience. The forums are the best form of documentation and advice for new players that exist. Game manuals are so general that you couldn't imagine how things are played. I didn't see the usual disclaimer that "Game experience may change against real players" on the front of the box, but that is always the case in a competitive game.

Aside from the forums, there is the method of watching other players from within the game. My experiences with this have been a complete disaster. I took my trusty little wammo through PvE not seeing that I was supposed to tank, since most of my ranger/caster teammates had gotten run to droks. I watched other warriors rush straight to the backline towards monks, because after all, most of the squishes were fine with what little damage they were taking. Monks didn't heal or remove conditions, so I found myself removing annoying things like blind off my fellow warrior teammates. Things got better when I started soloing things, because basically I went with my solo build into missions and didn't care whether I had any help. Afterwards, I monked and got to learn about everything by clicking on skill bars and being accepted into many kinds of groups.

Now, upon playing as an elementalist I got to see the usual stuff about carrying most groups in PvE with my fire antics. There is almost no way for a person to see that Spiteful Spirit is working in most cases, but I could clearly see that I was upstaged by a minion master for both offensive and defensive purposes. The comparison to warriors was a little more difficult because you are comparing single-target attacks with multi-target spells.

I've read much of the thread in question, involving the head-to-head comparison of autoattacking with spell spamming that an elementalist isn't capable of. Ensign clearly describes a type of experiment, and presents facts that at least prove PvP warriors to be better at dealing damage than PvP elementalists. The argument is then transfered to compare armor ignoring damage skills and +damage on warrior attacks against end game PvE mobs. If someone wants to prove the opposite, we should be able to have a scenario where Elementalists can outdamage SS necros, minions masters, and IWAY teams against high level PvE mobs and in PvP: outside of one spike.

Many of the old guides about damage dealing will hold up as long as the skills, the effects, or the attributes aren't drastically changed. If this is intended never to happen, then people should at least be able to know about things as they are. Elementalist is a support profession, taken to an extreme of using AoE to support teammates by abusing mob AI. Should an elementalist ever choose to go full damage, he can be easily shut down by mesmers and rangers, but the argument has never even progressed that far because the damage is so low.

Xasew · Aug 21, 2006, 01:09 PM // 13:09

Fire:

-Buff AoE range for DoTs, give shorter recharge/cast times.
-Lower some of the energy costs.

Water:

-Buff damage and some of the snares to last a bit longer.
-Make Maelstrom a killer spell. Buff the AoE or something.

Air:

-Dunno, Air seems fine to me

Earth:

-Give us an elite Ward, Ward vs Harm is just pure shit.
-Remove exhaustion on Earthquake, but make the recharge worse. Or something.
-Buff Obsidian Flame, spike is dead anyway.

Eles as damage is quite sucky. Orb+Strike assisting a WSpike is great, but the Warriors still do most of the damage.

LightningHell · Aug 21, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

The whole argument started basically over a few lines in a manual that refered to an elementalist as the best damage dealer. Because of the mechanics of spell damage against higher armored enemies, the elementalist fails to maintain top damage dealing status during the end game PvE experience. The forums are the best form of documentation and advice for new players that exist. Game manuals are so general that you couldn't imagine how things are played. I didn't see the usual disclaimer that "Game experience may change against real players" on the front of the box, but that is always the case in a competitive game.

Aside from the forums, there is the method of watching other players from within the game. My experiences with this have been a complete disaster. I took my trusty little wammo through PvE not seeing that I was supposed to tank, since most of my ranger/caster teammates had gotten run to droks. I watched other warriors rush straight to the backline towards monks, because after all, most of the squishes were fine with what little damage they were taking. Monks didn't heal or remove conditions, so I found myself removing annoying things like blind off my fellow warrior teammates. Things got better when I started soloing things, because basically I went with my solo build into missions and didn't care whether I had any help. Afterwards, I monked and got to learn about everything by clicking on skill bars and being accepted into many kinds of groups.

Now, upon playing as an elementalist I got to see the usual stuff about carrying most groups in PvE with my fire antics. There is almost no way for a person to see that Spiteful Spirit is working in most cases, but I could clearly see that I was upstaged by a minion master for both offensive and defensive purposes. The comparison to warriors was a little more difficult because you are comparing single-target attacks with multi-target spells.

I've read much of the thread in question, involving the head-to-head comparison of autoattacking with spell spamming that an elementalist isn't capable of. Ensign clearly describes a type of experiment, and presents facts that at least prove PvP warriors to be better at dealing damage than PvP elementalists. The argument is then transfered to compare armor ignoring damage skills and +damage on warrior attacks against end game PvE mobs. If someone wants to prove the opposite, we should be able to have a scenario where Elementalists can outdamage SS necros, minions masters, and IWAY teams against high level PvE mobs and in PvP: outside of one spike.

Many of the old guides about damage dealing will hold up as long as the skills, the effects, or the attributes aren't drastically changed. If this is intended never to happen, then people should at least be able to know about things as they are. Elementalist is a support profession, taken to an extreme of using AoE to support teammates by abusing mob AI. Should an elementalist ever choose to go full damage, he can be easily shut down by mesmers and rangers, but the argument has never even progressed that far because the damage is so low.

Thank you. That was what I was suggesting.

Sauron the Evil · Aug 23, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

Before saying eles suck try getting your fire magic to 16 and using dual attunements. Using meteor shower then rodgorts invocation should decimate any mob and by using dual attunements you should have no energy problems. I have a ss necro and I find sometimes even it can't top the damage my nuker is doing.

LightningHell · Aug 23, 2006, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the Evil

Before saying eles suck try getting your fire magic to 16 and using dual attunements. Using meteor shower then rodgorts invocation should decimate any mob and by using dual attunements you should have no energy problems. I have a ss necro and I find sometimes even it can't top the damage my nuker is doing.

Before saying eles are uber at damage dealing try getting a warrior (or four) and back yourself with orders. Using Warrior attacks should decimate any mob and by using adrenaline attacks you shouldn't have energy problems. I have an Elementalist and I find sometimes even it can't top the damage my Warrior is doing.

Well, unless you're going back to Ascalon. I'm currently talking about Desert/higher in Tyria.

Artisan · Aug 24, 2006, 09:23 PM // 21:23

Hey, I like my fire ele, I play him well.

Anyway, to say that eles are useless as damage dealers is like saying that ritualists are useless as healers, or assassins are useless in melee. Not true.

LightningHell · Aug 25, 2006, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Artisan

Hey, I like my fire ele, I play him well.

Anyway, to say that eles are useless as damage dealers is like saying that ritualists are useless as healers, or assassins are useless in melee. Not true.

This is going to sound really gay, so...

Hey, I like my air/water ele, I play him well.

Anyway, to say that eles are useful as consistent damage dealers is like saying that monks can't heal, or warriors have the worst DPS in the game. Not true.

Why Nuking Sucks ftw. It's in the Gladiator's section of this forum.

Xpl0iter · Aug 25, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

air / water ele goes well
so does earth and air
combinations are various, but just for utility purposes in high end area

Bah, ANET NEEDS to read that thread once a day in breakfast, once in lunch and once by the dinner time.

Sauron the Evil · Aug 26, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Man,everyone here is stupid. I have a renewal nuker and guess what I have no complaints about damage output. I'm amazed by the damage my ele can do sometimes. So just stop complaning about a non-existant problem.(BTW I have a ss nuker and he does a lot of damage,but thats only under certain circumstances.)